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Basi
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 #21 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 04:41 pm Post subject: |
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| kenny wrote: | | i was simply saying he should be punished in a way that it is a punishment and not a reward |
i
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so my question for you is this. according to your logic, how would you punish a man who killed a woman, who wanted to go to jail, some mental institution, or die because his life was too miserable to do anything else?
the ye response is something like
'kill him or send him to jail anyway because he has created a victim out of the mess and the kenny-plan no longer applies to him' |
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ye
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| #22 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 04:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Basi wrote: | | ye wrote: | | Basi wrote: | | ye wrote: | | Basi wrote: | uhhh
so according to you... if a man kills a woman and wants to do it he shouldn't be tried according to what the law is because he wants to do it?
the system is broken and arguably rigged against the poor chap in current society. you want to punish them for fighting (legally and according to the system's rules) against the broken system. |
you are talking about two completely different things.
he "robbed" a bank for $1, hurt absolutely no one, and he's going to jail for 3 years (according to the video i watched)
murder is on a completely different level. fuck, it's a completely different game. |
hm, where did i say they were similar, can you not read
i was replying to this
"and that obvoiulsy isn't a punishment if its what he wants"
if a man wanted to be punished by death and/or life in prison (which is the result of killing someone), then he shouldn't be punished by that according to kenny because that's what he wants. unless kenny wants to propose a set of guidelines when to abide by this logic and when to ignore it (as you're suggesting in a case this extreme that logic should be ignored).
where are you confused |
You compared them, making them similar.
If you do a victimless crime for the sole purpose of being fed, being cared for medically, being sheltered all on the tax payers dime, you should not be sent to prison for years.
Personally, I think the dude had a good idea but pulled it off horribly. You don't let anyone know your intentions, especially if you plan on gaming the system. |
i didn't compare the crimes, i compared the desires for consequences in each.
"If you do a victimless crime for the sole purpose of being fed, being cared for medically, being sheltered all on the tax payers dime, you should not be sent to prison for years."
so you're saying that the, for lack of another word, "kenny-plan" should be imposed if there is no clear victim in the plan? lolllll
every crime has a victim, if you can't see one you're not looking hard enough. not to mention that is a very gray/fuzzy line to begin with. once constitutes a "victim". is it emotional damage, physical damage, permanent damage? if the man asked for $1 and said i'm robbing this bank (which he said) and the cashier happened to be a anxiety freak prone to cardiac breakdowns and had a heart attack, would you change your mind about his punishment despite the same actions occurring? whether you do or don't, either case is arguable, which shows how murky the waters you're trying to walk on are. |
I don't think any plan should be imposed. All crimes are unique and deserve unique sentences based upon the motives for the crime, the severity of the crime, etc.
By victim I mean irreversible damage done. If she did react that way, of course i'd change my mind because the circumstances changed.
There is no doubting the american justice system is flawed beyond repair but that doesn't mean you should be able to abuse it to get free food etc.
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ye
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| #23 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 04:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Basi wrote: |
the ye response is something like
'kill him or send him to jail anyway because he has created a victim out of the mess and the kenny-plan no longer applies to him' |
No, that is not my response. I don't think anyone should be killed for any crime because police/forensic teams are humans and make mistakes. People that have gone to prison for life for supposedly committing murder have been vindicated decades later.
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Basi
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| #24 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 04:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ye wrote: | | Basi wrote: | | ye wrote: | | Basi wrote: | | ye wrote: | | Basi wrote: | uhhh
so according to you... if a man kills a woman and wants to do it he shouldn't be tried according to what the law is because he wants to do it?
the system is broken and arguably rigged against the poor chap in current society. you want to punish them for fighting (legally and according to the system's rules) against the broken system. |
you are talking about two completely different things.
he "robbed" a bank for $1, hurt absolutely no one, and he's going to jail for 3 years (according to the video i watched)
murder is on a completely different level. fuck, it's a completely different game. |
hm, where did i say they were similar, can you not read
i was replying to this
"and that obvoiulsy isn't a punishment if its what he wants"
if a man wanted to be punished by death and/or life in prison (which is the result of killing someone), then he shouldn't be punished by that according to kenny because that's what he wants. unless kenny wants to propose a set of guidelines when to abide by this logic and when to ignore it (as you're suggesting in a case this extreme that logic should be ignored).
where are you confused |
You compared them, making them similar.
If you do a victimless crime for the sole purpose of being fed, being cared for medically, being sheltered all on the tax payers dime, you should not be sent to prison for years.
Personally, I think the dude had a good idea but pulled it off horribly. You don't let anyone know your intentions, especially if you plan on gaming the system. |
i didn't compare the crimes, i compared the desires for consequences in each.
"If you do a victimless crime for the sole purpose of being fed, being cared for medically, being sheltered all on the tax payers dime, you should not be sent to prison for years."
so you're saying that the, for lack of another word, "kenny-plan" should be imposed if there is no clear victim in the plan? lolllll
every crime has a victim, if you can't see one you're not looking hard enough. not to mention that is a very gray/fuzzy line to begin with. once constitutes a "victim". is it emotional damage, physical damage, permanent damage? if the man asked for $1 and said i'm robbing this bank (which he said) and the cashier happened to be a anxiety freak prone to cardiac breakdowns and had a heart attack, would you change your mind about his punishment despite the same actions occurring? whether you do or don't, either case is arguable, which shows how murky the waters you're trying to walk on are. |
I don't think any plan should be imposed. All crimes are unique and deserve unique sentences based upon the motives for the crime, the severity of the crime, etc.
By victim I mean irreversible damage done. If she did react that way, of course i'd change my mind because the circumstances changed.
There is no doubting the american justice system is flawed beyond repair but that doesn't mean you should be able to abuse it to get free food etc. |
so different sentences for the same crimes/actions and the changing variable being motive...
do you know how easy it would be to lie/manipulate that extra variable you added. would be a lawyer's paradise (needless to say it already is one but you get the drift) |
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Basi
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| #25 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 04:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ye wrote: | | Basi wrote: |
the ye response is something like
'kill him or send him to jail anyway because he has created a victim out of the mess and the kenny-plan no longer applies to him' |
No, that is not my response. I don't think anyone should be killed for any crime because police/forensic teams are humans and make mistakes. People that have gone to prison for life for supposedly committing murder have been vindicated decades later. |
ok...you're sidestepping the point. the point is you would treat it like a rape case ignoring the motive because the result was so extreme. whether or not he dies, goes to jail, rots waiting for bail, etc., would be up to the courts anyway at this point. |
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ye
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| #26 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 04:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think all punishment should be based on the outcome of the crime and the people involved. This man had no criminal past, was an overall nice, genuine human being, and now he's going to prison for years. He is thinking about his immediate health and not long term. When he gets out of prison, no one will want to hire him. People will see him as a criminal.
And where did you get rape case from?
/e outcome or intended outcome*
Last edited by ye on 23 Jun 2011 04:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Basi
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| #27 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 05:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ye wrote: | I think all punishment should be based on the outcome of the crime and the people involved. This man had no criminal past, was an overall nice, genuine human being, and now he's going to prison for years. He is thinking about his immediate health and not long term. When he gets out of prison, no one will want to hire him. People will see him as a criminal.
And where did you get rape case from?
/e outcome or intended outcome* |
so not motive like you said 5minutes ago because you're describing something very different here. at the moment it's a balance between outcome and action, you're suggesting just outcome? Question mark because i really don't know, not trying to be condescending. if you're saying just outcome that won't work at all because the outcome of stealing 100 dollars from a kid could potentially be worse than the outcome of raping a whore, so do you punish the guy who stole the $100 more?
the rape question is there because it represents a huge flaw in this (at least kenny's, not 100% sure what your ideal scenario would be) line of thinking.
why don't you answer the question in post 21 for me too and i think it will give more insight to this conversation |
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ye
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| #28 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 05:10 pm Post subject: |
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If the man was mentally sane and murdered a woman on purpose he should be sent to prison for life.
I know i'm contradicting myself because I have very little understanding of the law and I don't know a whole lot about the sentencing process.
I think it should all be taken into account, but ultimately, the outcome is what is important regardless of the crime.
When I say the people involved, I don't mean just the victim. If you rape a whore, you are a rapist, it's not like you are both model citizens.
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| #29 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 05:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ye wrote: | If the man was mentally sane and murdered a woman on purpose he should be sent to prison for life.
I know i'm contradicting myself because I have very little understanding of the law and I don't know a whole lot about the sentencing process.
I think it should all be taken into account, but ultimately, the outcome is what is important regardless of the crime.
When I say the people involved, I don't mean just the victim. If you rape a whore, you are a rapist, it's not like you are both model citizens. |
ok i think i understand what you're stance is.
so regarding this issue (the $1 bank robber) you feel the sentence is wrong because:
A. he took advantage of the system (what kenny thinks)
B. he is going to lose out in the long-term and it is up to the courts to look at the bigger picture?
C. other (you tell me)
if you read the article, you'd know he was definitely looking at the bigger picture. he looked at sentences and did the crime required to stay in jail until his social security would kick in because he was sick of living on the streets without healthcare, so keep all that in mind when you answer. there is no doubt he took advantage of the system for his benefit, which is what makes kenny mad.
imho and personally i feel he was right to take advantage of the system. it's dirty, corrupt, immoral, and some 3rd world countries have better healthcare systems than the US. for me this is not a judicial problem like it is for kenny and might be for you. for me it's purely a healthcare problem and this issue ($1 bankrobber) is allround good because it exposes how fucked up the status quo is.
Last edited by Basi on 23 Jun 2011 05:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ye
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| #30 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 05:48 pm Post subject: |
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I feel the sentence is wrong because 3 years for stealing 1 dollar, seriously?
I understand if he went to jail for some short period of time like a couple weeks, but 3 years?
He is going to forever be a criminal, regardless of what his future plans are.
I think everyone should have access to proper health care, but that doesn't mean those who don't should game the system to their advantage.
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Basi
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| #31 Posted: 23 Jun 2011 06:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ye wrote: | | but that doesn't mean those who don't should game the system to their advantage. |
and this is where we disagree. if people continue to stfu about it then people without healthcare will remain people without healthcare.
there needs to be more ruckus like this. again, imo |
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